Imaginary iterates of exponentiation jaydfox Long Time Fellow    Posts: 440 Threads: 31 Joined: Aug 2007 09/12/2007, 07:13 AM (This post was last modified: 09/12/2007, 07:36 AM by jaydfox.) Okay, first of all, we need a name for performing the ith iteration of exponentiation. The 1st iteration is exponentiation, the -1st iteration is the logarithm. What's the ith iteration? Notice that the -ith iteration is the inverse of the ith iteration, but unlike the logarithm/exponentiation duality, imaginary iterations and their inverses are conjugates of each other for real numbers and real bases. For complex numbers and/or bases, we've picked one side or the other of the real line, so they might not necessarily be conjugates anymore (indeed, they probably aren't). While I'm on the subject of naming, I'm searching for a better verb for performing logarithms. To perform an exponentiation is to exponentiate. To perform a logarithm is to...??? To perform an exorcism (on an evil spirit) is to exorcize (the spirit). To give criticism (to a person or about a movie) is to criticize (the person or movie). I'm tempted at times to say that to perform a logarithm is to logarithe, but it doesn't quite roll off the tongue... Okay, back on subject. We need an ith iteration of exponentiation. We could start with a tetration solution and derive one, but I'd very much prefer to derive one from basic principles instead, and use it to derive and/or validate a tetration solution. First, some observations. The ith iteration of natural exponentiation of base e has two primary fixed points at . If we momentarily call the ith iteration "imaginary exponentiation" and the -ith iteration "imaginary logarithm", the the upper fixed point is an attracting fixed point for imaginary exponentiation, and the lower fixed point is a repelling fixed point. For imaginary logarithms, the upper fixed point is repelling and the lower is attracting. I'm wondering if we could possibly experiment with exponentiation of complex bases to study this effect. I've experimented and found that complex bases (the few I played with) have both attracting and repelling fixed points of exponentiation, so that logarithms will tend to one and exponentiations will tend to the other, unless they happen to escape first (we could say that infinity is an attracting "fixed point" of exponentiation or logarithms in these cases...). I had been hoping to find a complex base with a fixed point at 1.337-0.318i, which is -i times the fixed point of natural exponentiation. However, I haven't found a way to find a base that has a specific fixed point. Even if I found such a base, I'm not sure what I'd do with it, other than play around with it and see if I get any inspiration... ~ Jay Daniel Fox andydude Long Time Fellow    Posts: 510 Threads: 44 Joined: Aug 2007 01/16/2008, 05:47 AM is such a base. If you know a fixed point then quickfur Junior Fellow  Posts: 22 Threads: 1 Joined: Feb 2008 02/21/2008, 08:51 PM jaydfox Wrote:[...] While I'm on the subject of naming, I'm searching for a better verb for performing logarithms. To perform an exponentiation is to exponentiate. To perform a logarithm is to...??? To perform an exorcism (on an evil spirit) is to exorcize (the spirit). To give criticism (to a person or about a movie) is to criticize (the person or movie). I'm tempted at times to say that to perform a logarithm is to logarithe, but it doesn't quite roll off the tongue... [...]What about ... logarithmatize?? Or, just "log (something)" for short. But "log" is already too overloaded. Hmm. Logarithate, maybe? or logarithmate. Bah, you're right, there is no good term for it.  Ivars Long Time Fellow    Posts: 366 Threads: 26 Joined: Oct 2007 02/26/2008, 08:12 AM (This post was last modified: 03/07/2008, 04:31 PM by Ivars.) jaydfox Wrote:First, some observations. The ith iteration of natural exponentiation of base e has two primary fixed points at . If we momentarily call the ith iteration "imaginary exponentiation" and the -ith iteration "imaginary logarithm", the the upper fixed point is an attracting fixed point for imaginary exponentiation, and the lower fixed point is a repelling fixed point. For imaginary logarithms, the upper fixed point is repelling and the lower is attracting. Hi Jaydfox, This may be relevant: Omega constant =0.5671432904097838729999686622 is defined by 1=Omega*(e^Omega): So selfroot of Omega: Omega^(1/Omega) = e^ln(Omega^(1/Omega) = e^((1/Omega)*(ln(Omega))=e^((1/Omega)*(-Omega)) =e^(-1)=1/e=0,367879441 Infinite tetration of selfroot of Omega: h(Omega^(1/Omega))=h(1/e) = -W(-ln(1/e))/(ln(1/e))= -W(1)/-1=Omega=0,56714329=-ln(Omega), Square superroot of (Omega^1/Omega) : ssrt(Omega^(1/Omega) = ln(1/e)/W(ln(1/e))= -1/W(-1)= -1/(-0.318131505204764 +- 1.337235701430689*I) = 0.16837688705553+-0.707755195958823*I. W(-1) = 0.318131505204764 +- 1.337235701430689*I So why not call it Omegation? Ivars Ivars Long Time Fellow    Posts: 366 Threads: 26 Joined: Oct 2007 03/20/2008, 07:47 AM (This post was last modified: 03/20/2008, 10:32 AM by Ivars.) Just to clarify for myself: i -th exponentiation of anything (e.g.) 2 would be: 2^i = 2*2*2*2*2............ i times = 0.76923890..+I*0.63896127...=e^(i*ln2) i-th root of this number would be 2. (1/i=-i ) Learning, thanks. ith exponentiation of a function is not i-th iteration of a function. See next post by administrator which puts it straight. Ivars bo198214 Administrator Posts: 1,616 Threads: 102 Joined: Aug 2007 03/20/2008, 10:24 AM (This post was last modified: 03/20/2008, 10:27 AM by bo198214.) Ivars, please dont post completely unrelated things! Before you reply you should at least have a base understanding what you are replying to! You can not just throw in your ideas because of similar sounding words like "imaginary exponentiation" that even are explained in the same paragraph to have a different meaning. Taking powers with complex exponents is a well explored area, there is nothing mysterious about it, its even tought at highschool. However taking the I-th iteration of a function is a rather unknown area and barely connected to the I-th power. And *this* was discussed by Jay here in this thread for . Catullus Fellow   Posts: 213 Threads: 47 Joined: Jun 2022 06/29/2022, 01:22 AM (This post was last modified: 07/06/2022, 08:46 AM by Catullus.) Like before: Quote:The .png file attached to this post is smaller than the .txt file attached to this. The .txt file attached might not look right on a smart phone. The text graphs need a monospaced font. The image attached to this post looks blurry, because of the size of the image. . Here are graphs of the real and imaginary parts of  and , using the Kneser method: Attached Files Thumbnail(s)  Imaginary Iterations of Exponentials.txt (Size: 6.91 KB / Downloads: 66) Please remember to stay hydrated. ฅ(ﾐ⚈ ﻌ ⚈ﾐ)ฅ Sincerely: Catullus /ᐠ_ ꞈ _ᐟ\ Gottfried Ultimate Fellow     Posts: 898 Threads: 130 Joined: Aug 2007 06/29/2022, 11:04 AM (This post was last modified: 06/29/2022, 12:24 PM by Gottfried. Edit Reason: picture inserted ) Perhaps an additionally illustrating discussion in mathoverflow from 2011: "Do complex iterations of functions have any meaning?"                    1)  Question by Anixx  (see some graphic of similar style as given here)                2)  Answer by me (Gottfried Helms)  (as well one picture)                3)  A long & detailed (recent! 2022) answer by Tom Copeland . (Also referring some unclear points in my answer of 2011)  ================================================= Here is an excerpt from my answer: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - quote This is a picture, where I studied the application of imaginary heights, using the base for exponentiation $$b=\sqrt2$$. It has the attracting real fixpoint $$t=2$$.          As an example, look at the left side, with $$z_0=1 + 0\cdot î$$. Using iteration with real heights (here in steps of $$1/10$$ ) we move rightwards to $$z_1=b^{z_0}=b = 1.414...$$ and by more iterations more towards the fixpoint $$t =2+ 0 î$$. This is indicated by the orange arrows.    Note that because $$t$$ is a *fixpoint*, we cannot arrive at points on the real axis more to the right hand!          But using imaginary heights, iterations move from $$z_0$$ to $$z_h$$ on the indicated circular curve (computed data are in steps of $$0.1 { \pi \over \ln \beta} î$$ see legend), which is indicated by the blue arrow.          This iteration does not go towards the fixpoint, but repeats to cycle around it. On that cycling the trajectory crosses the real axis beyond the fixpoint.    (Legend: the circular curves which connect the computed iteration-values of imaginary heights are Excel-cubic-splines and thus only very rough approximations of the true continuous iterations) end quote - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Perhaps a more expanded, systematic and visual presentation would be good for us all ... Gottfried Gottfried Helms, Kassel MphLee Long Time Fellow    Posts: 373 Threads: 29 Joined: May 2013 06/30/2022, 10:13 PM (06/29/2022, 11:04 AM)Gottfried Wrote: Perhaps an additionally illustrating discussion in mathoverflow from 2011: "Do complex iterations of functions have any meaning?"                    1)  Question by Anixx  (see some graphic of similar style as given here)                2)  Answer by me (Gottfried Helms)  (as well one picture)                3)  A long & detailed (recent! 2022) answer by Tom Copeland . (Also referring some unclear points in my answer of 2011)  [...] Perhaps a more expanded, systematic and visual presentation would be good for us all ... Gottfried Those are great links, thanks for collecting them. Your material is great and intuitive, also thanks for reminding me of Copeland's great answer, I forgot about it. Ofc, a more systematic and visual presentations woul be beneficial for everyone... but who has the time for it? MSE MphLee Mother Law $$(\sigma+1)0=\sigma (\sigma+1)$$ S Law $$\bigcirc_f^{\lambda}\square_f^{\lambda^+}(g)=\square_g^{\lambda}\bigcirc_g^{\lambda^+}(f)$$ JmsNxn Ultimate Fellow     Posts: 1,176 Threads: 123 Joined: Dec 2010 07/01/2022, 09:09 PM I always like to relate things to the unit disk when doing these iterations. The value $$\exp^{\circ it}(z)$$ traces an almost elliptic path, similar to $$\lambda^it$$ for $$\lambda$$ the multiplier. Essentially the object looks very much like $$z \mapsto \lambda^i z$$, but it's placed in this weird fractally shape (the immediate basin). If you map the immediate basin (using Schroder) to $$\mathbb{C}$$, this comparison becomes directly evident. Fun fact, you can use this to prove that the immediate basin about the fixed point is simply connected. There exists a sequence of jordan curves which slowly approximate the boundary. $$\lim_{x\to\partial \mathcal{A}} \exp^{\circ it}(x)\\$$ You can prove this is a jordan curve with some work, but it's doable. So picture a bunch of almost elipses which start to slowly get more and more fractally as $$x$$ approaches the boundary, and more and more circular as x approaches the fixed point. You can copy paste a lot from the mapping $$z \mapsto \lambda^i z$$, thanks to the Schroder function. All in all, it's not something inherently that interesting though. The function $$\exp^{\circ it}(z)$$ is definitely more interesting--especially for periodic, about the fixed point, solutions. Looking at the boundary of the immediate basin, you would never guess that it is a Jordan curve, and that the immediate basin is simply connected, but it is. Totally weird looking fractally shape that it is. This limit sort of lets you watch as a nice looking ellipse starts to look more and more fractally. « Next Oldest | Next Newest »

 Possibly Related Threads… Thread Author Replies Views Last Post Discussing fractional iterates of $$f(z) = e^z-1$$ JmsNxn 2 360 11/22/2022, 03:52 AM Last Post: JmsNxn Convergent Complex Tetration Bases With the Most and Least Imaginary Parts Catullus 0 415 07/10/2022, 06:22 AM Last Post: Catullus Merged fixpoints of 2 iterates ? Asymptotic ?  tommy1729 1 4,451 09/10/2019, 11:28 AM Last Post: sheldonison Half-iterates and periodic stuff , my mod method  tommy1729 0 2,835 09/09/2019, 10:55 PM Last Post: tommy1729 Approximation to half-iterate by high indexed natural iterates (base on ShlThrb) Gottfried 1 4,055 09/09/2019, 10:50 PM Last Post: tommy1729 half-iterates of x^2-x+1 Balarka Sen 2 7,858 04/30/2013, 01:14 AM Last Post: tommy1729 Q: Exponentiation of a carleman-matrix Gottfried 0 4,718 11/19/2012, 10:18 AM Last Post: Gottfried The imaginary tetration unit? ssroot of -1 JmsNxn 2 9,811 07/15/2011, 05:12 PM Last Post: JmsNxn Tetration and imaginary numbers. robo37 2 9,900 07/13/2011, 03:25 PM Last Post: robo37 Infinite tetration of the imaginary unit GFR 40 104,896 06/26/2011, 08:06 AM Last Post: bo198214

Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s) 